[00:00:00] Angela: Hello, communicable listeners. A quick preamble to what you're about to hear. This is the second part of a discussion on women and men in medicine that we, CMI communications editors had on the occasion of International Women's Day.

This part will make a lot more sense if you've listened to the first part. If you haven't, don't worry. Just be aware that there is mention of a supposedly infamous late breaker clinical trial session held in 2018 at ECCMID now called ESCMID Global, where I was able to present the results of a multinational randomized clinical trial.

[00:00:33] Angela: It should be known that I was not the recipient or applicant of the grant making possible that trial. It was my former boss, Stefan Hobar, who allowed me a lot of visibility in the running and reporting of. The other thing you should know about the first part of our discussion is that early in it, Annie Joseph, like us, other women editors, told a story of being made to feel small by a powerful figure.

It's worth listening to that because she reports here what happened later and what happened later is hugely important.

[00:01:12] Angela: So we're back. We established in the first part of this conversation that there's more to be done for women in id and we're doing it, but it seems sometimes it's two steps forward, one step back, and we wanna explore that.

[00:01:25] Angela: So now we turn to the men. We're lucky to have men of different age groups here. We have men who've got small, medium, and grown children. We have men who have seen a rapid transformation in our field, in their professional lifetimes.

[00:01:37] Angela: so Josh, mark, can you tell us what it was like when you were young ID docs as opposed to now?

[00:01:44] Angela: What were expectations of you at home back then and what are they now? What are expectations from your bosses now as opposed to then Mark?

[00:01:54] Marc: Yes. First of all, I also have to admit that I was in the same room as the room that was talked about before the break, and I was making notes and creating a real time blog on the presentations there.

[00:02:07] Marc: And also I was impressed. By Angela. I'm was a good session. Now I've been cured from many prejudices, uh, over the years. Um, and let me give you one example that I frequently use now to, to colleagues, is in the Netherlands we have that system that you can get a grant in. The grant lets you hire a PhD student for four years, and then in those four years, the PhD needs to be finalized.

[00:02:31] Marc: because then the funding ends and the person goes, let's say into medical specialty training or something. So at one time, it must have been about more than 20 years ago, I recruited a, female PhD student and I told her, you have the job. And she was very pleased. And the day after she came to me, what I didn't tell you is that I'm five months pregnant.

[00:02:54] Marc: Before I could respond. She said, but you don't have to worry before I leave. Everything will be settled. The trial will run and you won't sense that I'm absent. And that's exactly what happened.

[00:03:06] Angela: Wow.

[00:03:06] Marc: And that's the example that I now always tell people if they express concerns about having a PhD student, whether it should be a male or a female candidate, and taking that into consideration, I always tell 'em this story because I think of all the ambitious female PhD students and also postdocs and and colleagues, they are very motivated to not let that pregnancy leave be an interruption.

[00:03:35] Marc: And so I'm very, let's say I'm treated from that prejudice. Now if it comes, for example, what you is the negotiations. I'm happy to say that I don't see any difference anymore between the genders, so that's very good. Really

[00:03:49] Marc: interesting. Yeah. And

[00:03:50] Marc: where I work, I have more female colleagues than male colleagues, so, and I also see sometimes exactly the same unwanted behavior of creating an intimidating work environment for other people.

[00:04:04] Marc: I see that also happening from a. From female colleagues.

[00:04:08] Angela: which goes to the point that, these are power games. These are not necessarily gender, it's just that we are all living in a time when men tend to have more of these powerful roles, and therefore they tend to be more of the.

[00:04:22] Angela: Power players, but once women get there, they'll be doing the same. It's, it's not about gender, it's, you know, it's just human behavior. Right.

[00:04:30] Erin: Yeah. I think that's a good point. because I think, men need to sponsor women, but women need to sponsor women, and I think that especially.

[00:04:38] Erin: Women who maybe are, uh, a little more advanced in their careers now grew up in a time where they really had to claw to get where they are. And so there's this little bit of like, I fought really hard to get here, and so I'm pretty reticent to give up my opportunities. And I, I can, understand that, but it's also like we have to, you have to give, give things away too now, because otherwise we're never gonna bring up more people.

[00:04:57] Erin: And It's also our obligation to give credit away, nominate people in our place. Now, once you've, had opportunities, because otherwise people are never gonna crack, crack into the scene, right.

[00:05:07] Josh: So,

[00:05:08] Josh: absolutely.

, I started my training in infectious diseases about, nearly 20 years ago.

[00:05:14] Josh: And at that time. Most of my cohort of trainees that were just starting were male. Whereas now, like I kind of get a surprise if I see a male ID trainee, then most of the, we call them registrars, it's like fellows in the us. definitely more females than males. I don't know what the percentages are, but, visibly more so that's a change.

[00:05:37] Josh: I think from a personal perspective, I was gonna raise the parental leave, issue that's been mentioned already. And when my first kids were born, my wife got maternity leave, I think it was three months or six months, half pay and paternity leave was one week. so I got to take one week off.

[00:05:55] Josh: So as a result, I actually, I. The following year when my wife went back to work, I just quit my job and had a year off work and then had to go and get an another job a year later, to look after twins, which I'm really glad I did that, but it was sort of not easy to do. Whereas now, one of my colleagues is who I share an office with who's a male, is about to have a, a baby with his wife and he's sharing the, it's parental leave now, not paternity or maternity because it might be two, male parents, two female parents or whatever.

[00:06:27] Josh: So he's sharing the leave with his wife. and you know, that's a really very different than in a pretty short period of time. So I think that's a great gain. One thing I would say before, I think we pat ourselves on the back too much and say, sexism's been conquered is like, obviously it hasn't.

[00:06:46] Josh: And, all of us who think we're not sexist, we are people that think we're not racist. We are, we have internalized biases that we don't always recognize. and one example I just wanted to raise before that was quite interesting on Australian television a couple of years ago, there's a popular, morning news show that's co-hosted by a man and a woman.

[00:07:08] Josh: and the woman used to get emails and complaints about if she wore certain outfits. Like people, viewers would say, oh, you wore the same thing as you wore last week. The male host on purpose for an entire year wore the same suit every single day, as an experiment. And no one said anything. And he revealed after one year, you know, I've been wearing the same suit this whole year.

[00:07:32] Josh: so that's, a good example of completely gender based bias that is kind of unconscious in a lot of people.

[00:07:39] Angela: it's interesting. like I said earlier, we grow up in the same, you know, women are growing up with these biases as well. We're being raised in the same culture, same people. we of course have our own, internalized, self-imposed sexism. I know, I, I catch myself all the time. , I know that we carry these with us and I think it's very hard to get rid of them.

[00:08:02] Angela: The first step, like you say, Josh, is to just admit, admit that you have these biases. a lot of people don't wanna admit that. I think. Yeah.

[00:08:11] Angela: so Mark, I think your kids

[00:08:12] Angela: are still pretty young, right? School age?

[00:08:16] Marc: Yeah. Correct. So

[00:08:17] Marc: We are together for 20 years. We have three kids, and as of this morning we were still happy.

[00:08:22] Angela: I just wait till she hears this.

[00:08:25] Marc: in my younger years of a career, I did not have a family to take care for. So I see firsthand how difficult that is for a, a woman, for a mother. And I spent more time at home than she does. And she works very hard. She's a clinical immunologist, a patient doctor with very sick patients, chronic patients, very demanding patients, and she does clinical research as well.

[00:08:49] Marc: so my kids see her as the one that works the hardest. And two of the three already decided never to wanna become a doctor. So we have one, one left. But, yes, my situation at the start of my career was completely different than her situation. And remarkably easier I have to say. So there are differences.

[00:09:11] Angela: Yeah. I think, having kids much later is, almost ideal in a way. But the problem for women is we don't have a later, we, you know, we've, oh no. Unfortunately, that that clock ticks and those reproductive years are exactly when women are trying to get their foothold in the fellowship, in the, early career, professorship positions and whatnot.

[00:09:34] Angela: yeah, so yeah, it's really tricky. but, I know Mark, I know your wife is very lucky, because it's clear that you're able to really support her and the kids while she's doing the work she needs to do,

[00:09:48] Marc: be told enough.

[00:09:50] Angela: Yeah. Thomas and Nav. How are you dealing with expectations at work versus expectations at home? do your bosses expect you to go pick up your [00:10:00] kid who's sick from the nursery or, is there flexibility for you or how are you dealing with these expectations on both sides? Work and home.

[00:10:09] Thomas: Yeah. So I have two sons. They are 15 and 17, so not that small anymore. and I think that gender equality is quite good in Sweden compared to many other countries.

[00:10:19] Thomas: And you talked a lot about parental leave already. And I think as a general rule, the parents split evenly between them. And that's not a small thing in Sweden because we, we usually stay home between nine and 12 months per parent. So it's a long period of time. And also, I think, uh, regarding your questions about sick leaves or taking care of your kids when they're sick, that's something you usually take turns about.

[00:10:47] Thomas: So you would take one day and then the other parent would take the next day. So, so it's, so far I think it's, it's not, I. A big problem. we have the structures and, and that's also accepted in the workplace that you do it like that. It may be different in some, occupations I'm talking about now, uh, physicians mainly in the hospital and ade academics.

[00:11:08] Thomas: But then I think, there is this more, more of a cultural problem in the next step, when the kids grow up a bit. And, uh, it's more about priorities. Do you prioritize your family or do you work all nights and weekends with your research? Especially if you want to make this academic career.

[00:11:25] Thomas: and there's, obviously a difference there still. but like I said, I think it's more cultural than structural. So I'm not sure exactly how to change that. people have their free will. Is this, an expectation problem? Is there still work at home that's not evenly distributed between the parents?

[00:11:43] Thomas: That will in turn, make. make it more difficult for female researchers to find time to do this. I'm not sure, but, there are still big problems, for sure. And for me personally, it's, never been, I never felt like this, this was a Problem. I mean, finding the balance between family and work has always been a decision I made myself.

[00:12:06] Thomas: That's at least how I felt.

[00:12:08] Angela: Thanks. Thomas Nav?

[00:12:10] Nav: Yeah, I think,

[00:12:11] Nav: Your responsibilities at home and work, it's, impossible to balance. Balance implies that you're winning on both ends and it feels like that's quite impossible. Sometimes some things lose and some things win.

[00:12:25] Nav: My daughters are six and three, and so I. thinking about it a lot for a lot of things, especially, long term, the sacrifices of, okay, I won't sacrifice my time during the day with them, but then I have to stay up all night working on this and working on that, and how that's gonna affect my health in the long term if I do that chronically.

[00:12:45] Nav: And I don't wanna, compromise my health in the long term because I know I'm gonna regret it in the future. and I've thought a lot about those things, so it's challenging. And for me, I, cherish being a dad and, and having those moments. And, it's very easy for me to try to ground myself and think about, you know.

[00:13:04] Nav: What is my priority? And I think for hopefully, and it feels that way in the US and I honestly think that there are sort of influential people that have put that to, light that, you know, being a father should and can be a priority for a man. It doesn't have to be work and you have to be, the breadwinner that prioritize nothing but work and earning money and whatnot.

[00:13:24] Nav: so I think hopefully that that'll normalize and hopefully that'll have indirect effects of the same thing of shared responsibilities at home. Then let you know the women in your life, pursue their career because that's, that should be normalized too, in, in the sense that they don't have to be at home.

[00:13:39] Nav: They can pursue their career. And it can be the inverse of what the, historical situation has always relegated women and men to, in terms of their roles. And so it's challenging and it feels quite impossible sometimes. But, uh, I think you do have to pick your priorities and it's like Thomas was saying, it's, it's sort of a cultural, like even an internal cultural decision of what you're gonna prioritize and work with.

[00:14:02] Nav: and at home we, we share responsibilities and I try to do more. I've seen what my wife went through during pregnancy. There's nothing I could do to share that responsibility. And so, after she delivered our girls, it's, like. Man, I could give a lifetime of trying to carry a higher load and it still won't offset the things that she went through, during pregnancy and how much she had to, because it's not like she's just sitting there.

[00:14:27] Nav: Right. It's a very active, deliberate process of staying healthy and dealing with, being uncomfortable all the time. You know what I mean? So, they'll never be like, oh, I've carried the load, you know, to, it'll never be that way. So it's just trying to be very conscious of that and trying to step out of, misogynistic biases and, and cultural expectations that you sort of see and try to make sure that you're not implicitly thinking about those things on a day-to-day basis.

[00:14:55] Erin: . It's really great to hear. I think also too, whether you're a man, woman, we also need to normalize that like being a stay at home parent is the hardest thing ever.

[00:15:02] Erin: And I, so I don't have my own children, but I have two stepchildren and I, I came into their lives and they were like, 11 and 13, I think. so a little later, but oh my gosh. And I love them so very dearly, but like, it is such a wild perspective for me to come into how much work it is to have children.

[00:15:18] Erin: And I think, we're always like, oh, someone goes to work and someone stays home. Like the person who stays home has it way harder. it is a very, very tough job. Very important. So whether the very important, whether the dad is staying home or the mom is staying home, I think a, again, for women, I think we've minimized over decades that being the stay at home mom is like less than going to work.

[00:15:38] Erin: And like, quite frankly, it sounds. So much harder. And I think if you talk to anyone who was a stay at home parent, they're like, yeah, it's

[00:15:46] Angela: extremely important and extremely unpaid work. I mean,

[00:15:49] Erin: that's all it is. It's, yes, it's the most thankless, selfless job in the, in the world, and it's very hard. And so I think that is another thing we can do to support whomever.

[00:16:00] Erin: But traditionally that has, you know, if one parent had to stay home, traditionally it's been women. But I think that's a place we've made a lot of strides is now I see a lot of people who, I know a lot of friends who the dad is a stay at home parent. and the woman works.

[00:16:10] Angela: Yeah. So my husband and I used to, when our kids were little, we used to joke that we would come to work to relax.

[00:16:16] Angela: Yeah. We had three kids in four years, so it was a little bit of a rodeo at home. Yeah. But you know, listening to NAV and Thomas, I actually think that things have changed so much just from when our kids were little. So, 10, 15 years ago, my oldest, my son is 18 years old. and then I've got the two daughters, 16 and 14.

[00:16:37] Angela: And when they were little, it was very hard for my husband. We would have conversations about this. , we were both full-time, by the time the littlest was five years old.

[00:16:48] Angela: You know, if one of the kids got sick, if there was a dentist appointment to take the kids, there was flexibility for me. But there was not flexibility for my husband. It was very much still the 1950s, at work. You know, our bosses just didn't, they allowed me , some slack.

[00:17:03] Angela: , but not him. And he felt really caught. and I'm hearing that maybe that's a bit better nowadays, that this was, 10, 15 years ago. and in Switzerland also, of course, uh, we're all in different countries. but, yeah, hopefully we're, we're making some strides there.

[00:17:20] Erin: We've talked a lot about family life and the balance with that and the traditional role of a woman. But I do just wanna say too, for all of our listeners globally, that it's also like very okay to normalize being child free. And I think that that feels maybe more so for women than for men.

[00:17:34] Erin: If, a man is like, I don't really wanna be a dad, people are like, yeah, that's cool. Okay, go forth and conquer. But if a woman's like, I don't really wanna have kids, people are like, what's wrong with you? Like, you inherently must want that. And so I think that's another way we can support women globally is like, if you don't want to have your own family and you just wanna pursue things for you and like.

[00:17:56] Erin: Not starred family. I think that's a hundred percent acceptable and we don't really vocalize that a lot. Yeah. It's very hard, as Nav said, I loved that you said that it's not a balance. I always say like, work life balance is not a thing whatsoever. 'cause it implies that there's actually balance. It's more integration.

[00:18:14] Erin: It's, you have all these pieces and how do you do it? And if you're at work, you're not with your kids. if you're with your kids, you're not really paying attention at work. So, like it's, that is, that is true. And so you just have to kind of figure out how to deal with that every day.

[00:18:26] Erin: And if you only wanna have one of those things in your life, I think that's okay. Whether that be only having kids and not working, or only working and not having kids. And that's, I.

[00:18:35] Angela: So I have one question for the men. again, often inspired by my conversations with my husband, who is, I always like to say one of my favorite feminists.

[00:18:44] Angela: he had a little experience that really kind of shocked me in its unfairness. And frankly, I thought it was quite misguided. He worked very hard for three years on a project, and, when this project was finalized, needed to call a press conference to,

[00:19:01] Angela: to, promote this project. He was initially told that, no, you can't be the one to present this, project, you're a man, it cannot be you. and this was his baby.

[00:19:14] Angela: He had developed it.

[00:19:15] Angela: , but he was told that he could not present, the project. And I was more incensed than he was. and so I think, you know what, what was happening here was obviously overcorrection, right? , this experience taught me very efficiently how quickly some men might feel quite alienated from the cause, of women.

[00:19:35] Angela: , I'm glad today that my husband is still, holding the line. but I could imagine real backlash. so for the men, what do you think, , what do you feel, have you had experiences like this? How do you think we could, are there better ways to correct this?

[00:19:50] Josh: I have had similar things in the research world. for example, in grant applications where you, you have up to 10 [00:20:00] chief investigators named on a grant. There's been a couple of grants that I've been quite involved with the project, but, because of gender balance, I wasn't able to be a ci. There were already too many other men.

[00:20:12] Josh: and, there were women, chief investigators on the grant who were put there purely to balance, the gender and weren't particularly involved in the projects. I think that's people just kind of trying to gain the system in a way and make the grant, assessors think. I think the grant assessors will see through that.

[00:20:32] Josh: equality is really important, but it shouldn't be just paying lip service. It should be real. so yeah, that's a small example. there's a initiative at the moment in the Australian government, agency that funds research to, give an equal number of, fellowships to women as men.

[00:20:50] Josh: So at particulate certain, like my career stage, it's almost impossible to get these grants if you're male. But, you know, there's reasons for that. I can see that. And I think that that's okay. It is just a reality that, we have to work with. It's not like I, I don't have other grants and, a whole lot of other advantages

[00:21:09] Josh: that I've had throughout my career.

[00:21:12] Angela: I mean, your response seems really wonderful and mild and positive, I mean, I know I'm a woman here, but I'll just chime in I mean, personally, I don't wanna get anything just 'cause I'm a woman. I wanna get it because I worked really hard and I'm an expert in this space , and I have earned it.

[00:21:26] Erin: And so for me, it, what happened to your husband should not be happening. And I think that's, we're going too far in the other direction and we need to find the middle ground. I think it's. What we're really trying to do is, okay, I need to nominate someone for this thing. Okay. There's seven men that come to mind right away because they just, they have more experience.

[00:21:43] Erin: They've traditionally had more opportunities. Their name is in more places. They have more publications, but, okay. take a step back. Are there any other qualified people on the planet and not, you know, other men maybe too, but are there any other people that come to mind that would also be equally as qualified because of work they've done? And it's really, for me, it's like just challenging myself after I think of the first five people that come to mind for any given opportunity. Then doing a deep pub med search, asking colleagues for colleague recommendations, finding other people that I may have never heard of, and then putting all those people on the playing field, looking at all of them and their qualifications, and then trying to pick a representative sample of, of a really good group of people to do the work.

[00:22:25] Erin: But all of those people have earned that and have the qualifications. I think what Josh said is very true. If we're just subbing in. Different people from different countries, different colors, different genders, just to check a box. We're doing it wrong. So we need to find a, an appropriate way to handle equity.

[00:22:42] Angela: And I'm, yeah, and I'm really worried because, we've got these younger men who are coming up and, they really might need those grants if they wanna stay in academia or whatever, or, you know, if they aspire to a leadership position.

[00:22:54] Angela: And I mean, we're seeing it in certain countries, we are seeing backlash and really that's one of the major points of this whole episode, is that we don't wanna harm ourselves, right. We don't wanna, alienate, the men.

[00:23:06] Angela: Thomas.

[00:23:07] Thomas: I don't have the data to support this, but these are my thoughts. I mean, if you look at education and grades, female students are normally better performing than male students.

[00:23:18] Thomas: Then there are some challenges. I, I think it occurs in early career somehow, where it's sort of male students, Make more rapid progress. And then we're talking about, the later stages when you're already a senior physician or a senior researcher, and we want to balance the, gender in courses and, conferences and even as judge, judge mentioned here for, for grant applications.

[00:23:44] Thomas: And then, the feeling could be that it's a disadvantage to be a male in these contexts because you're sort of competing. I mean, the rate of, success or the rate of being accepted as a speaker or, applicant is lower. But I think that's the only way to change things over time.

[00:24:01] Thomas: I, I think we need to have these examples. And, and you talked about this great session at SMID Global, a few years ago, having female, researchers get these big grants or presenting at these international congresses. I think that is absolutely necessary. To stimulate younger female researchers. , so I don't think there's another way to do it.

[00:24:23] Thomas: I, I don't think we should complain as male, researchers. We, we had our chances and we have historically been privileged, so I think it's just fair to do this. Thomas, I, I agree with you. I mean, that was, that was my thought. I mean, I think it, upsets folks and I get it in the acute situation, in the silo of that particular project or whatever it may be, it's upsetting to people and you're not trying to discredit people's like acute, emotional response or their thought, but if you stretch it out.

[00:24:58] Nav: A lot, and you look across a pipeline as well as, a sort of longitudinal career path. historically the deck is stacked in the favor of males. And so you've created a pipeline that have favored males. Like what Mark was saying, maybe, there's, more favor for, male hires or for male PhD students or whatever it is, because oh, the supervisor's worried they're gonna get pregnant, and so they favor males.

[00:25:26] Nav: And so there's these things that go in to stacking the deck in favor of males over the years. And at each level that ends up adding up. And I see statistics and I don't have the data. balance of male versus female. going into school is one thing, but then all the department chairs are male and it's like, so what happened along the line?

[00:25:45] Nav: Something broke down along the line. 'cause those distributions don't add up later down in senior positions. And so what do you do? I mean, you have to fix the pipeline and go upstream, but in the meantime you have to try to do something to compensate for the fact that you've stacked the deck, you know, unconsciously or, systemically it's been that way and not maybe an individual person, but just structurally that's, that's the way it is.

[00:26:08] Nav: And so what can you do? And, and the point is there are things you can do. And so while it doesn't maybe feel good to the particular person in the moment, if you, move from an individual perspective to sort of the population level, you know, thinking from a science view, then maybe that is what's needed because of the fact that you have this sort of disparity, across the board.

[00:26:31] Nav: And it's not at your level that you've caused, but that's just what's happened along the way, unfortunately. And so, how do you help correct that or help Correct. Course.

[00:26:40] Annie: So interesting listening to you two talk about this. So interesting and I, I think there's such a, a fine line and I completely get what Angela is saying about how there will be some men, obviously not Thomas or Nav when, or Josh when you've been saying how, how you feel in this scenario.

[00:26:57] Annie: There are some men who will feel really angry and, and can feel really, unfair and, and hurt by that. And that can have consequences as well. we don't really, generation of angry men.

[00:27:13] Annie: , I, I think I lean with what Thomas and and Nava saying it feels unfair to that one person in the moment, but that's almost like it's because they haven't got that privilege in the moment that they're used to having every single day from the day that they were born as males in, you know, the patriarchal world that we live in.

[00:27:32] Annie: I guess not having that privilege feels like you've lost something, whereas for women, it feels like we've gained something when we get an opportunity we're not used to getting. So I think there's a flip side to it, but having these conversations so, so important, so important.

[00:27:49] Angela: That's really interesting.

[00:27:50] Angela: So yeah, I guess that's why I have so much worry and, and real empathy for the men in this time period, because their default is a position of having, and I, I do think women, our default is obviously not having, , having to, , lay low. Don't shine too much. but, but keep trying to get something. , does anybody else wanna say anything any last thoughts?

[00:28:17] Annie: I just had one last thing I wanted to say actually related to the story that I told at the beginning about the medical director.

[00:28:23] Annie: I mean, people know where I work and it's not hard to work out , who this person is. He's recently retired and I thought, you know, I'm gonna tell this story, but I'd quite like to know how he would feel about that. So I actually reached out to him and emailed him and said, this is how it made me feel in the moment.

[00:28:40] Annie: And, what do you think about it? And he was so contr, contr and so, uh, embarrassed. And he said, I can't remember ever saying that. And I, I'm so sorry if I ever made you feel that way. And I'd like to think that I would never do that now. And I've learned a lot over the past few years from talking to people about, you know, microaggressions and, um, sexualized language in the workplace.

[00:29:03] Annie: and we actually ended up having a really nice interaction about it. And he said, yes, use this example, use my name if you want, if it helps to move the conversation along, then put it out there. so I did, so I'm sure people do know who I'm talking about, but that's okay. We need to, we need to have open discussions.

[00:29:17] Angela: So, wow, that is a beautiful, follow up to that story. I'm so glad you shared that with us. I think that's really the model and I think that's what our men here are saying, you know, just listen and. Learn and react, as you should, in line with each, you know, with each small event.

[00:29:38] Angela: just, be open and, I think that's not a bad place to start actually. So, thank you so, so much to my fellow editors, my fellow co-hosts. Erin McCreary here, stateside with me, five in the morning now, seven in the morning. thank you so much Erin. we've got Nav also [00:30:00] stateside New Jersey.

[00:30:01] Angela: Thank you so much for getting up for this moving, eastward. We have Annie Joseph in Nottingham uk. Thank you so much, Annie, for giving your time on this Thomas in Sala, Sweden. Mark Bonten, in at re, the Netherlands. Thank you so much. And finally, Josh Davis. What time is it in Australia, Josh?

[00:30:26] Josh: It's, uh, 11 o'clock.

[00:30:29] Angela: Ah, thank you for staying up late with us, Josh Davis from Newcastle, Australia. And thank you for listening to communicable the CMI Comms podcast. This episode was edited by Dr. Katie Hostettler, oy, and , it was not peer reviewed. Theme music was composed and conducted by Joseph McDade.

[00:30:49] Angela: This episode will be citable with a written summary referenced by A DOI in the next eight weeks. You can subscribe to Communicable on Spotify, apple, wherever you get your podcasts, or you can find it on estimates website for the CMI Comms Journal. Thanks for listening and helping CMI, comms and ESCMID move the conversation in ID and clinical microbiology and in their workplace further along.